113. From Startup Success to Balanced Life: A Founder's Journey

00:00:00 - Who here knows about a little known platform called Kajabi? I would hazard a guess that most of you, if not all of you, know what Kajabi is. What you may not know is that in 2021, Kenny Roeder and Jonathan JCrons, or JCron, who are the founders of Kajabi, exited the company at a $2 billion valuation. And I had the pleasure of meeting both of them, and I was so pleasantly surprised at how humble they both were. In fact, here's a text exchange between JCron and myself about this podcast. I said, any chance you'd be open to do an interview for my podcast? I've just rebranded it to win the content game. And every month, I do an interview with a founder about challenges they're currently in or facing and how they're coaching themselves through it. Right? That was my request to him to be on this podcast, and he said, I'd be happy to, as long as, you know, I haven't actually worked for three years. Smiley face, of course. To which I replied, yep, I know that. I was thinking we might actually talk about that as the challenge that you're actually facing, that you're working through, because I know you mentioned that was a challenge for you a few months ago. His reply. So your plan is to ambush me and make me get all vulnerable on your podcast? To which I said, well, I mean, yep, actually, that's exactly what I'm planning. So today's episode is a special one, because you're going to be hearing directly from one of the most humble billionaires I know about how he's been finding the challenge of transitioning out of working and into his next phase of life or his career, how he's faced that challenge and what he's doing right now to try to overcome it. My name is Deirdre Tshien, sir, and co founder of Capsho, and this is win the content game, JCron. So you kindly reminded me in our text exchange that you haven't been actively working for the last three years.

00:02:15 - As embarrassing as it is to admit, that is correct. I been out of day to day operations for about three years, so any references I use that are super dated now. You know why?

00:02:27 - No, it's. It's super cool because, you know, we actually connected a few months ago. And what I was surprised about, which actually also served to be a really, really powerful reminder, definitely, for me, is that I'm gonna say. I'm gonna say this in the best way possible, but even. Even someone like you, who has successfully exited a multi billion dollar business like Kajabi. You've been recently facing some of your own challenges, and I was keen to bring you onto this podcast because, you know, it's almost like no matter where we are in this entrepreneurship game that we're all playing, you know, whether we're just starting, whether we're scaling, or whether we've exited, we're always going to be facing challenges. And it's our ability to coach ourselves through these challenges that actually help us win the game. And so if it's okay with you, I'd love to start there with getting real about what it is that you're currently facing, what it is you're currently going through. Really paint the picture for us.

00:03:23 - Sure. It's pretty simple. You know, there's always the metaphor that everyone uses, like, you know, a dog catching a car. What are you gonna do when you catch it? And I think that so much of entrepreneurship is choosing a goal, going after it, choosing a goal, going after it, choosing a goal, going after it. Then you achieve some of the goals that you thought you might not achieve till much later. You achieve them differently, you achieve them faster, and you're left with this feeling of like, well, okay, I didn't know it was going to go this way this quickly. What's the next goal? And when you haven't identified that, it can be a little bit unsettling because you kind of reach areas where things change that you used to assign a lot of value to. Maybe it was a certain amount of money, maybe it was a certain house, a certain car, certain something. And you get it, and you very quickly realize that it doesn't work the way you thought it would. And so you choose something one step beyond that, and then that doesn't really make you feel the way you thought it would. So you kind of end up on what they call this hedonic treadmill, where eventually you've had it happen enough times that you start to realize the next thing isn't going to solve it. And it kind of prompts you to begin asking different questions. You start looking more inward and asking, well, what do I really want? What do I want my life to look like? Qualitatively, not necessarily quantitatively, how do I go about impacting the world and leaving a legacy that I care about? It prompts bigger questions that for somebody like me, who sort of thinks in terms of growth scale and marketing campaigns, they're harder to answer. Wow.

00:04:52 - Okay, let's dive into that a little bit in terms of what maybe map out for us. What were those kind of goals that you were striving for. And if you were to sort of speak to that Jakeron, like, what would you kind of tell him? Would you be like, yes, keep going, or would you have different advice?

00:05:11 - You know, it's hard because so if you go back to what I think kind of drove my, I don't know if I'd say unhealthy, but let's call it abnormally focused pursuit of success. I would say it probably started in childhood for me that I didn't grow up in challenged circumstances. You know, we were very much upper middle class parents, were great executives, but it was also something where there was always a stress around money. It was viewed as a topic that there wasn't enough of it, that if we had more of it, things would be different, that we looked up to people that had more of it than we did, that at times we probably even tried to present that we had more of it than we did. And so there was always this focus on achievement. And I think that that really created for me this equation of, I view achievement as freedom, that if I am making enough, have enough, I am now free from the stresses of, hey, the car registration isnt getting paid, or someone forgot to pay the electric bill or whatever. And looking back on it now, I think then I really associated it with money. Now that im an adult, I actually recognize it wasnt a money thing. It was much more of just an organization thing of two parents that were working too hard and going in too many directions. But I think that prompted me to focus in those areas. And so the thing that I would probably love to tell myself earlier is don't miss the opportunities to figure out what you're actually passionate about. A lot of my friends, were they to trade places with me, I think they'd be far happier than I am. Like, I have friends that, man, they'd spend all day building hobbyist speakers. Cause they just like building speakers. Or they might go scuba diving everywhere. They could go scuba diving, or they might golf five days a week. Like, they might have a hobby or a passion that occupies so much of their joy that they would pursue that. And I think I was so focused on the business side that I missed the opportunity to develop some of those interests. So I would say I probably would tell younger me, assuming everything still would go the way that it would. Cause I think a lot of my dysfunctions have helped me do what I did. But assuming I still end up here, I would have said prioritize the journey and the experience that rather than missing trips because I couldn't get away from work. I would have recognized that whatever the work was would be waiting for me when I got back and I would have taken those trips. I would have done the things that it was like, I don't have the time or I can't do it now. I would have done them then because I now don't have the time.

00:07:47 - Interesting. Okay, so let's talk about the, you know, you mentioned that now you don't have time and you are, I believe, starting to try to discover some of these things that you didn't have the time back then to discover. So what, how are you coaching yourself through this process? What, like, what types of things are you doing? Are you just like, I'm just going to try a ton of different things and see what I like. What is that process?

00:08:11 - It's really not that scientific. It's, it's kind of a, so the way I talk about my journey that sounds a little bit ridiculous is it's like I wake up on Monday, probably after, you know, a few too many on Sunday, and I'm like, okay, that's it. I got to get my shit together. You know, I'm getting back out there. I'm going to do something. So by Monday I've, I've made my commitments. By Tuesday I'm researching to start or buy. By Wednesday I've narrowed it down to a few. By Thursday it starts to feel like a lot of work and have some risk. And by Friday I'm splitting a bottle of wine with my wife and I'm like, eh, you know, leave it till next week and have a great weekend. And it just kind of repeats on that cycle. So I think for me, the coaching myself through it, it's been hard to find foundational principles to like, begin to limit that aperture of options because when your optionality expands, having no options is just as stressful, if not, maybe easier to navigate than when you have too many options. And so I think that as I've gotten a little bit of distance and a little bit of reflection, I would say that this next season, for me, I would like to find things that fire me up creatively but that allow me to enjoy them without any unnecessary sacrifices. And what I mean by that is my dad traveled a lot when I was a kid. Gone, you know, all the time providing for the family. And so I know I could jump into a job tomorrow if I wanted to travel 100,000, 200,000 miles a year, be gone all the time, even though that may satisfy my desire for success or impact for a company. It's definitely not going to satisfy my requirements as a father of a three and a half year old and a husband and all of those things. So I would say I'm now looking at it and saying, well, if I can't find the way to achieve the success that I want within the constraints of, I don't travel all the time, I'm able to move any meeting that I have. If my daughter walks in and wants to dance, I'll be late to the meeting. So I would say the learning I've had is if I were to summarize it, and it's a little bit wandering, you chose a topic that I don't have any prepared answers for, so be prepared for the messiness. But I would say summary would be choosing the constraints that matter for what I'd like to do in this next season coupled with being patient with the process that, you know, it means getting comfortable with. I might miss out on some things. I might miss out on some opportunities that don't fit that heuristic of what I want my family life to look like and what I want all those other aspects to look like. It may mean that I miss opportunities because I'm not going to travel. It may mean that I'm going to miss opportunities because I don't want to risk that big financially. And getting to the point where accepting that, that's the part that's hard for me because I want to say yes to everything. Just like any entrepreneur, I want to go after every opportunity possible all the time.

00:11:05 - Yes. Okay, let's talk about that. Because I'm going through something. I've been going through something similar where the good thing about having opportunities, when I was younger, I was always like, okay, I want to have all of the opportunities because when you have opportunities, you have freedom of choice. But then the shadow side to that is what you said, which is without freedom of choice, it's almost a procrastination tool. And then you blame, I think it.

00:11:33 - Was Tim Ferriss who said that busyness is the new laziness, that busyness is even worse because it just indicates undisciplined thought.

00:11:40 - Yes. So given that, how did you get. Okay, I should ask, when you were building Kajabi, did you have this same, you know, because I'm sure that you had opportunities out of your ears while, you know, in all different aspects. And what did you do in those moments of trying to keep yourself focused and disciplined on what you need to do to achieve your goal?

00:11:59 - I was fortunate in that regard with Kajabi because I had absolute, unequivocal certainty that it was what I was meant to do. There was not a moment that I was at Kajabi where it was like, could do something else. Is there something else I want to pursue? It just hit so many things for me, dead center. Never, never even came up. Like, I mean, there was never a moment where I was like, oh, maybe I could pursue something else, or, oh, maybe I'll look at that other thing. Never came up.

00:12:28 - Yeah. And what about in terms of like. Cause I'm sure there were opportunities in or even within kajabi, in terms of like, you know, maybe there are opportunities in a whole host of partnerships or, you know, in product suites and feature like this. There would have been a ton of things that you would have been juggling with at that time. So, yeah, how did you stay focused on what it is that you needed to do?

00:12:48 - So that one, I would probably say, was a bit of more art than science, but I would say that our ultimate acid test for the prioritization of anything was our customers. That we very quickly realized the fastest path for us to achieve success was through exponentially scaling the success of our customers. And so whether it was the anecdotal constant presence in our customer groups that Kenny and I maintained, whether it was watching our customer service, customer support, customer success feeds, and seeing what came out of there, but ultimately, the prioritization always came down to, well, what's going to have the most impact for our customers? And that was what we always solved for. So beginning with that process, it very quickly got rid of a lot of things that are distractions. And then let's call it the creative process of, well, what will have the most impact? That was more of a discussion. You sit down with your engineering and product teams, and it's like, okay, this one will have a real big impact for our customers, but it's going to take us six months to a year to ship. Well, okay, that's great. They need it. It's going to be awesome when it's done. But what are we going to do in the interim? Because we're not going to go six months or a year without giving our customers something cool that will positively impact their business. So almost, in a way, I would say it's like that college professor where you've got the metaphor of, is this bucket full? And, no, not yet. So he puts in some giant rocks, fills it to the top, is this bucket full? And they're like, well, yeah, it's full. And he's like, oh, well, then he puts in smaller rocks and fills in the crevices. Well, is the bucket full? Yeah, of course it is. Well, no. Then he takes some sand and it fills in the rest of the crevices. Is the bucket full? And they're like, well, yeah, it's totally full. And they're like, no. Then they dump water on top of it, which fills in the rest of it. So there is this element where you're always going to have an order of operations based on the constraints of the business, but it doesn't negate the fact that there are going to be important things that you must be working on all of the time, and then there are going to be medium and smaller wins that you can have that keep things interesting and exciting while you're working on the bigger things. And so to us, continuing to provide those wins and those opportunities along the way is what gives a company the trust and the permission to ask a user base to wait longer for some bigger things. So it's sort of like, by us always prioritizing our customers, we had the opportunity to say, look, guys, we're going to bring something huge, but it's going to take a bit because it's a lot of code, it's a lot of stuff. It's a lot of architecting that we got to do. But we didn't say, do us a favor and just be patient with us, and we're going to do nothing else because we know that this business moves too quickly for us to take a break. It was one of those things that I would say we always held ourselves to a very high standard of output because we know that in our world, this is not just some app that some company has some person that uses occasionally when they're at their job. For our people, our app represents mortgage payments and rent payments and grocery payments and kids college and groceries and whatever. It's not something that we can take as lightly as some enterprise data visualization tool or whatever. So we always had that at the forefront for us.

00:16:08 - Yeah, that's awesome. And was there any moment, even in that journey, where you were like, we've got this wrong, or we've. I don't know, like, whether it's.

00:16:18 - Oh, absolutely. The best example I have of it actually predates my involvement in Kajabi officially. For those of you that don't know, I met Kenny Reeder, the founder of Kajabi, probably about six months after the company started and consulted for them early, early on and we developed a friendship while I was consulting, and that friendship continues to this day. So I had a very unique vantage point for the seasons of Kajabi, even before I joined as partner and president in 2016. And the moment that I would say that was a huge inflection point in the company was when Kenny kind of said, we're going to do the unthinkable. We're going to take the Kajabi 1.0 platform that brought us to market, and we're going to completely cannibalize it over the course of the next year. And that became what was Kajabi classic and new kajabi. Now just Kajabi. But that moment was when Kenny said, the industry is changing. The previous iteration of Kajabi would not have allowed for email, would not have allowed for the flexibility of themes and courses that we had, would not have allowed for the architecture, for us to do what we're doing now with communities and other add ons. And it was a moment where Kenny said, if we don't start over and build on a foundation that will allow for this, we run the risk of becoming irrelevant. So I would say the biggest moment that we, quote unquote, got it wrong was actually more good standing in the way of great. It wasn't wrong, like, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. It was. If we don't have the willingness and intestinal fortitude or grit, as Kenny calls it, to do this, we're going to regret it and we're not going to be able to achieve what we'd like to be able to achieve.

00:18:01 - Oh, my gosh, that is resonating with me so much because we're actually going through our own rebuild right now.

00:18:06 - Yeah. The way that it actually, I've always loved it is a friend of mine who gave me my start in this industry, Joe, Paula, she always says, be willing to destroy whatever is not excellent in your life. And because ultimately it's just a form of settling. Like, even if it's good, if, you know, it could be or should be better, good is going to stop you from getting that.

00:18:28 - Wow. Okay, now talk us through how, how you make a decision like that. And it can be, even at the time when Kenny was like, we're doing this, but what went through his mind? I mean, I know you can't read his mind, but, you know, at the time, she had a lot of discussions to be like, was that because was it a gut thing that it started with, or was it because you were literally having users tell you something like, what what was it that really?

00:18:51 - I would say it's both intuition combined with living close to the customer. And it's one of those things that it sounds so simple and everybody says they do it. Everybody says, oh, I live close to the customer. Oh, we live close to the customer. Oh, we do customer interviews. We live close to the customer. So there's a balance, I guess I would say, like, you know, you've got the Henry Ford joke where it's like, if all I did was listen to my customers, they would have gotten faster horses that ate less. So there is a part where it's like, my customers don't know what I could bring that would innovate and move it levels beyond. That's where the intuition informed by the marketplace comes from. However, the customer portion will often inform the intuition and lead you to that conclusion anyway. So if you have a product and you begin seeing your customers using lots of other products in tandem to achieve the goal that they have, you then have to ask yourself, should my product do those things? The answer is, maybe. Maybe that's beyond the scope of what you're trying to do, or maybe that is exactly the scope you're trying to achieve. And that's going to be the individual decision that I think every entrepreneur will need to make. But I think that what we've always said at Kajabi is, if it's a one way door, you better be absolutely sure, you better have thought it through, be committed to the results, and have game theoried as much of it as possible to see all of the outcomes if it's not a one way door. And you can always reverse the decision, make those decisions as fast as possible because you can always reverse them if you're wrong. So I would say the gravity of the decision will, in proportion, weigh on the time and certainty that you should bring to it. But ultimately, the customers are going to inform that intuition, and the intuition is going to tell you if you're right or wrong. Wow.

00:20:34 - Okay. So I want to change tact a little bit, still in a similar vein to what we were talking about, but a lot of people are listening to this. They be coaches, consultants, service providers, people who you served in Kajabi. So I'm sure that you would have a lot of insight into this. But if we were to take, you know, because when we talk about from a product perspective, it seems to be a bit more tangible, but when we talk about whether it's a coaching program or a consulting service or, you know, how would you almost, and if someone is facing down a decision that, you know, around something like this, around. Should they keep following this particular path, or is there a way for them to be excellent rather than just great and make money? What would your advice be to them when it's not product led as such?

00:21:16 - Do you have an example that comes to mind as a general question? I can, I can try and answer it. It would probably be a lot more helpful if we had, like, a specific scenario related to, you know, do I keep going or do I not?

00:21:29 - Yeah, I think a lot of times it comes down to, you know, like, being a lot of it's offer led. You know, we have a few lists of people that, you know, use Capsho, captchovian stuff, who they're like, I think this is the, and they spent a lot of time, we know this in the industry. You know, you spend a lot of time coming up with the offer. And because I used to be in coaching as well, so I went through that same thing myself. And then you realize that actually it's, everything is changeable, but for people who are getting stuck at that, at that stage where it feels like it's do or die, and what would you say to them around, like, how they just keep going? How do they proceed? How they just make those decisions and commit when there is no certainty at the other side of it? Like, we just can't because that's just the game that we're playing.

00:22:14 - So I would say the first story that comes to mind that might be instructive was one that Joe Paula shared with me very early on in my career. And he was a carpet cleaner, and he got invited by a friend of his whose father was very wealthy, successful to go out on a boat, ride some jet skis, have some fun. And Joe was kind of talking to this guy's father about the carpet cleaning business. And if I remember the story correctly, and, you know, Joe, if you're listening to this, if I don't, correct me, but Joe was kind of complaining at the time, you know, like, terrible industry. Nobody makes any money cleaning carpets, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so the successful dad just kind of looks him and says, well, do you know of any people that are making money in the carpet cleaning business? And just say, oh, yeah, you know, these people. And these people, they're making money. And he's like, well, if there are people making money in the industry that you're not making any money in, you're the problem, not the industry. So I would say, number one, I would take a very hard look at the industry that is out there, and ask, is there a predictable, verifiable level of people achieving the level of success you would like to have that would indicate that it's possible. And if the answer is yes, then it means that there's elements you need to learn, improve, optimize, adjust to get those results. If the answer is no, you may have chosen an industry that might be exciting for you, but it might not have enough pain to drive purchasing behaviors. So we see this often at Kajabi, where, and the thing that I remember the most, there was a woman who, quite frankly, was an unbelievably compassionate person. She was wonderful, really wanted to create a course that she had experienced some very traumatic things, and she wanted to create a course that would teach people how to communicate with people that were in grief, that had experienced something traumatic. How do you talk to somebody that's in that state at that time? And my first question for somebody like that, in something that specific would always be, how are you measuring success? Because if success is measured by I just want this to exist and to benefit the universe, well, then it really should exist as a YouTube video and a blog post, maybe a download, just something that the world can find and access and benefit from. But if you're asking me that, how do I turn this into a successful business? And your judge of success is I'm making three, four, $500,000 a year from this business, three, four, five years from now. That's where I'm going to say, if you can't show me someone who's driving a business like this via organic content or advertising, or anyone who has proven that someone would pay for this knowledge, I'm going to say that it's passion for you. But that passion will become your prison or your purgatory as you continue to beat your head into the wall to sell something to a market it doesn't want, Eugene Schwartz, in his book Breakthrough advertising, said it best, where he talks about the desire does not come from the copywriter. It comes from the market. And all the copywriter can do is direct that desire to the product or solution that he wants it directed towards. But there's no amount of money possible large enough to create that desire. And the copywriter, if he goes against that desire, will likely get obliterated. So I think it's something where the second layer to this, outside of, are there people achieving the success you want to. The second layer would be, how are you measuring success? And do you have a level of confidence that what you're trying to do is doable versus this might not be a business. It might be fun, it might be a bonus. It might be a great service project, it might be a lot of things, but it might not be a business. And that would be another point. I see this often when you have people that have an amazing lifestyle business and they're like, I want to scale it up and sell it. It's like, I don't know that you can, that's a lifestyle business. And then you have people that have a scale up business that would prefer a lifestyle. It's like, well, you know, it's not going to scale if you build it like a lifestyle business. So I think that those qualifiers of are there people doing what you're trying to do, number one. Number two, have you validated that it is a business, not a passion, that will lead to prisoner purgatory? Number two. And then number three, asking yourself what type of business are you in and what is it capable of? The vehicle that you're driving, basically.

00:26:45 - Wow, that's amazing. Okay, so then on the, on that topic of like, seeing whether there are other people who are successful in the industry that you're in, what has been your approach to competition and competitors? Like, has it been something that has kind of like sharpened your competitive edge or is it something that you've been.

00:27:04 - Like, you know, I think competition largely, largely depends on the industry. So if you're looking at an industry where the outcome is binary. So lets say youre in the world of merchant processing and your job is to sell credit card processing services thats highly commoditized, highly competitive, and a major set of golden handcuffs. Once you get somebody locked in, likelihood of them switching for 1020 basis points almost nonexistent. So if you dont get that, youre likely not going to. In that business, competition is a very real threat and you need to build your strategies contextualized adequately for the competitive environment you're in now. If you were to look at other environments, I would probably say my general set point is a rising tide raises all ships, that if you are in a universe where you're helping people with podcasting, it doesn't mean that there can't be lots of people helping people with podcasting, because everyone's going to want something different. Everyone's going to want someone different. Everyone's going to identify with a different brand, a different story. So to me, I don't know that I would be bothered by competition. I would, quite frankly view competition as almost bringing people to market that will eventually find their way to me, like, hey, thanks so much for introducing this person to podcasting. I think I'm pretty awesome, so eventually they're going to want to work with me. That's kind of my attitude, I guess. For me, it's more of a mindset that it's like, even if you don't seat me at the head of the table, in my mind, wherever I'm sitting is the head of the table. It's just the way that I kind of try and show up in the world. So competition for me, I'm going to hopefully view it as it's a discovery mechanism for them to be in this universe that I care enough about to participate in. And hopefully it results in them finding me. And if they don't, that's cool, too. It just means that there's more people in this universe that I'm operating in. Unless you're in more of a binary, land grabby, super competitive kind of thing.

00:29:00 - Yes, that totally vibes with me, and I think a lot of the people that we serve as well. So thank you for sharing that. What's next for you? Or is there nothing like, you know, are you just going to be chilling out?

00:29:12 - I don't honestly have a great answer for that. I finally finished my book. The book will be out in July, and I don't know necessarily what I mean. The closest I've come after all of the wandering of three years outside of, I identified as a guy that did a thing with a company and now I don't do that thing. So who am I? I would say the closest I've come is I would like to find some companies that I could work with that excite me, that I can be important, but I can be not necessary. In other words, I'm not on an.org chart, but I get to be strategic, I get to advise, I get to help. I miss that. But I would like this next season to be characterized by doing that from an advisory position where I've got the time for my wife and daughter and kind of living a more balanced life. I would say that I am not a work life balance guy. It's never the way I've operated. I don't actually like the term, I think. And I was reading this on Twitter a couple days ago, somebody said if you're seeking work life balance in your twenties, you're never going to do anything significant. I actually believe that. But I do believe that after you go through the season of grinding, making it happen, and you end up with the luxury of being able to step back and say, okay, I don't have to play that way anymore. What do I want it to look like now? Now I would say I'm in a season where balance has become more important to me, but I am 100% positive. If I was not as obsessive as I was, I don't think that I would be. I don't think I would have the luxury to now not be as obsessive.

00:30:51 - Got it? Yeah. Okay. So would that be, do you think, having heard that path, that that would be your advice for most people looking to succeed in business?

00:31:02 - I would say it depends on what you want to do. Like, if you're saying, I want to build a category creating, industry defining company, that's going to take a lot more work than work, life balance, quality of life kind of approach. It just is. Maybe it won't for you. Maybe you found something so magical and you've built it in such a way that you can achieve something that I couldn't. That may be possible, but if thats what you want to do, thats going to really take some pretty herculean efforts. Now, if you said what I really want is I dont have any desire to have that. I have a desire to build a life and have a source of income that supports my life, then I think thats a very different exercise. I think thats much more of a lifestyle design than it is a blueprint for a company. So I think that it ultimately depends on what do you want to build. And once you know what you want to build, then you can have all of the questions that inform that they're awesome.

00:31:58 - Okay. I am mindful of time and I could talk to you forever. So where would you like people to connect with you?

00:32:06 - I'm not a huge social media guy, so I mean, LinkedIn is probably the only presence that I actually have that I do anything with. I'm on Twitter, but I don't really post anything there. It's just to read stuff and follow people I like. But yeah, hit me up on LinkedIn and, you know, always happy to help in any way that I can. But yeah, billion dollar bullseye. The book will be coming out in July and that'll have a whole lot more in it on our journey and what we learned and how we did it. So that's about it.

00:32:33 - Awesome. And I'm sure once it comes out, we'll get you back on so that we can talk a lot more about about the book and promote it. So thank you so much for joining us.

00:32:42 - Yeah, of course. Happy to be here and happy that people are plugging into what you're doing to help them win the content game. So for everybody watching, listening, and oh, you're going to want to stay close. I know that Deirdre has some pretty amazing stuff planned, and you know, she's out there every day on the field doing it alongside you. So what you're hearing is what's working right now and you're not going to want to miss it.

00:33:02 - Thank you. I cannot wait to get my hands on JCron's new book when it's launched later this year. JCron covered so much in this interview with so many gems. So I'd love to hear from you. What's one thing that you heard that inspired inspired you or motivated you to just keep going? Let me know via the show notes if you're listening to this on the podcast or in the comments below. If you're watching this on YouTube. My name is Deirdre Tshien. Thank you for being here and as always, stay intelligently lazy.